Couldn't agree more. So why was the first devblog so focused on nerfing it all into the ground? Just to get a rise out of the community? Because now we have those who were happy with nerfing it into the ground being made to feel like you are "caving in", when in fact you are taking a logical, methodical approach. But before that we had to experience the threadnaught where those who saw it as unnecessarily aggressive were forced to point out a lot of very obvious issues.

Glad you finally got to this point, but not sure it had to take this path

I think we just found the new end boss on the forums

So basically what you're saying is, don't do anything that can give you an advantage or we will nerf it to the ground. Not much of a sandbox.

Considering he has done exactly what he should have done in the first place, I think I've got a pretty good grasp on what the logical route was. They have multiple tools they can use in order to effect their desired outcome. They didn't need to drop the unopened toolbox from a 10-story building onto the problem, and then step themselves back, giving the impression of caving in. The modifications they have now come out with, all generally sensible, would have been the original outcome if they had bothered to discuss details with the CSM they way they should have. Instead, they brought it directly to the rabble using a worst-case scenario. That is bad judgment. And now that they have half of the people happy they showed moderation by using a logical process of change and review, they now have dopes who think they caved in. I guess you'd prefer a bad outcome as long as it means they didn't cave in on your illogical ideas. Make sense. Thank you for your insight, and good day sir.

The carrier is the entry level ship for anyone getting into being an independent nullsec player or entity.

The "Sandbox Argument", in fact, is a perfect example of fallacious reasoning - specifically Non Sequiter and Special Pleading, and can easily be countered by Reduction to Absurdity.

All game mechanics and rules are regulations and stipulations of some sort. The fact that this is a game about spaceships and not wizards and dragons is a stipulation. The fact that a "cruiser" is larger than a "frigate" is a stipulation. Every game mechanic is a "Regulation" of some sort.

It therefore does not follow (Non Sequiter) that there is something wrong with the proposed changes simply because they introduce new and different stipulations, regulations, or close "loopholes". All game changes and updates do that in some respect; in fact even creating the game in the first place did so. Your argument, if taken literally, is that changes to the game are bad because they are changes and that a "sandbox" precludes balancing or improvement attempts (regardless of the merits of the individual attempts) because it might somehow affect player behavior. This is your argument taken to its logical conclusion and thereby reduced to absurdity.

There is no strict wall between "themepark" and "sandbox" but it defies reason to suggest that creating new rules (the "box" part of the sandBOX) to revitalize areas of the game that are stagnating inherently changes the game into a themepark.

What you are REALLY trying to argue (and will no doubt deny in a fit of "you can't read my mind!" despite making your real intentions pretty transparent) is that these changes somehow make the game "themepark" because you don't like them. You have some arbitrary line or criteria in your mind based on the gameplay you want to engage in, and this somehow violates it, so therefore it magically becomes "too themepark". This is Special Pleading at it's finest "These changes are too themepark and bad for the game because I don't like them!"

Like most people, you then make the case that this somehow means disaster for EVE. It is a common conceit of MMO players anywhere that any change they personally disapprove of means mass exodus from the game, but if MMO companies actually listened to such nonsense, we'd still be playing Everquest without any expansions.

So I ran this idea past some non eve players using the analogy of cars the story goes as such:

Me: so you hear of a brand new BMW that is capable of doing 1000 miles per gallon, It costs you a years wage and an extensive driving licence that takes more than a year to complete.

them: WhatGÇÖs it called ?

Me: The BMW 540 W.I.S, Anyway this car has the ability to carry other cars, all of your furniture and go 400 MPH.

Them: 400 MPH ???

Me: yes itGÇÖs an awesome machine, ItGÇÖs the ultimate car.

Them: Ok I'm sold, Sign me up i want it.

Me: now the dealership drops the bombshell.

Them: thereGÇÖs always a catch.

Me: as usual, the car never does the 1000 miles, after 48.5 miles it overheats before you can travel again leaving you at the side of the road for 5 minutes and 51 seconds.

Them: well that sucks.

Me: thatGÇÖs not the extent of it, once you start driving again because the engine retains heat you travel 35.7 miles before stopping expecting it to overheat again, Your expectation is correct but this time you are stranded at the side of the road for 25 minutes.

Them: screw it I would rather take the train.

Me: but what about all the cool features this car has to offer ??

Them: ItGÇÖs not worth the time investment or money to sit at the side of the road.

Me: But itGÇÖs such a cool car if you want you can get a tow to cover extra distance while it cools down.

Them: nope not interested, I buy a car to get around despite all the cool features itGÇÖs not worth the trouble.



So even them that have never played eve or have any idea of these changes ( before this conversation ) agree that this "patch" is a pile of crap.

Go try this with people that don't play eve yourself and see what the reaction is.

If everyone would just step back for a second and look at the situation from the outside you would probably rethink the 'wtf' attitude and calm down a bit:

Capitals where introduced to have a counter to the original POS warfare. There is no POS warfare anymore because everyone kept shouting and screaming how awful that was. CCP changed it and yet - you kept your capitals - unchanged even.

We - the players - twisted the original ideas of ships into some completely different roles and as a result we twisted the original ideas of many other things at the same time. Eve is intertwined and we created effects that where not appreciated by many. CCP gave us a lot of time and just watched - but they obviously where not blind.

We as players have not been able to turn this wheel back - pretty human reaction as limiting ones abilities usually only happens when outside forces are at work. CCP is this outside force. Eve requires a change and change always means someone is going to suffer at least to some extend. Many others have suffered in other areas when changes where introduced for their line of gaming.

Pay these fellow gamers a bit of respect and dont act out like the upcoming changes are more important and more hurting than others in the past. Try to stay calm and adopt first instead of pumping out the 100th idea how CCP should implement things. We love to claim to be the 'smarter' community and the smarter players compared to other games - but currently we behave as bad as players of 'the game who's name shall not be stated'.